Within the seventh episode of “Enjoying President,” Ray McGovern, 27-year CIA veteran and briefer of 5 presidents, continues to make sense of the world to “President” Scheer, who ready for this function via his a long time as a journalist, together with in-depth interviews with 5 presidents from Nixon to Clinton. This week, McGovern briefs the president on Putin’s relationship with North Korea, Putin’s Friday speech on the assembly with senior employees of the Russian International Ministry and Boris Johnson’s axing of a Ukraine peace deal that additionally materialized at first of the struggle.
TRANSCRIPT:
McGovern: Morning, Mr. President. I’m glad to be with you in the present day. There are rather a lot issues happening that I consider you’d be excited about. Initially, a novel occasion with President Vladimir Putin going to Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea.
It is a massive deal. Relations between North Korea and Moscow have turn out to be nearer and nearer over the previous few years. It’s principally a symptom of ‘the enemy of my enemy is my buddy’ similar to the Sino Russian rapprochement that we’ve seen over the past 5 – 6 years, or extra. Nevertheless it has its army, and it has very harmful points to it.
The reception that Putin has gotten up to now, he’s simply arrived, has been foreshadowed by essentially the most effusive — what’s the precise phrase — it was simply nearly sickening, this turgid prose that Putin himself wrote within the North Korean Communist Occasion Newspaper promoting the closeness of the connection.
Now there’s an previous observe as you understand, Mr. President, legal information, you learn all these items and if a communique says the talks have been cordial and pleasant, that’s one factor. In the event that they have been frank, meaning they have been loggerheads.
This was cordial and pleasant to the nth diploma. Now there’s substance behind this. And that’s what I actually need to level out, Mr. President, as a result of I don’t assume —
Scheer: Let me interrupt you for a minute. Now, so when there have been communists over there in Russia, they have been near North Korea. Not as shut perhaps as China, once they had the signal of the Soviet Dispute and all that acquired combined up considerably, however that was regular. They have been shut. Putin is the man who defeated the communists, proper? So, temporary me right here, Ray, what’s their relation to North Korea now?
I do know the Chinese language communists and the North Korean communists, they’re getting cozier. They haven’t at all times been, however the place’s Putin coming in on this?
McGovern: There’s been a number of water underneath the bridge, so to talk, since Stalin inspired North Vietnam to go South. And so they did. As you understand, struggle ensued.
Relations between Russia and North Korea haven’t been so good over the past a long time till Ukraine and different occasions made North Korea notice that they’d to decide on, similar to China, between a detailed affiliation with the West or hopefully some respectable relationship with the West or signing up massive time with Russia.
Now it’s about to say that every one these this good rhetoric, this effusive cordiality is backed by issues which might be very troubling. I need you to know, Mr. President, that we consider that Putin has given North Korea a really refined ICBM, an intercontinental ballistic missile, able to reaching all, each inch of the USA with essentially the most refined supply methods, that’s shaft and all types of decoys.
And worst of all, Mr. President, we are able to’t make sure of understanding the place they’re as a result of they’re strong fueled, and so they’re cell. So this an inch up on the escalatory scale. We’ve identified this for over a yr. It was it was reported in a really prestigious assume tank. And Jacob Sullivan, your monetary safety advisor, was requested about this in August.
And he stated ‘yeah, we’re conscious of that, our intelligence individuals are wanting into it.’ That was a number of months in the past. All proper. Now, we may let you know, Mr. President, as a result of our scientists and the individuals who used to temporary the Pentagon, Chief of Naval Operations, MIT professors, and so forth swore to the truth that this isn’t Russia’s most refined, however subsequent most refined ICBM.
And there’s no gainsaying the truth that, shocking as hell, Putin gave that to North Korea a few years in the past, okay? They’ve take a look at fired it now, to not its full vary, however it will possibly go.
Scheer: Wait, what do you imply he gave it to them, and so he will get drones again and different stuff and munitions from Korea?
What’s happening? Who controls these? Is it Russian technicians? Who controls them?
McGovern: That’s the great query. We’ve been making an attempt to determine that out. Now, there are some individuals assume perhaps the Russians put a bit of bug in there in order that they might management it in the end. In different phrases, in order that North Koreans couldn’t use this with out Russia placing a bit of swap in there.
Most individuals say, no, that’s not going. North Koreans have this. They’d be sensible sufficient to determine about this little gizmo that was in there. The thought is that this is able to go. They’ve nuclear weapons. And what Putin is doing now in North Korea is saying —
Scheer: Wait, do North Koreans have a warhead that matches on this factor?
McGovern: Sure, they do. They’ve 50, 60 such warheads. It’s not an enormous process to suit a warhead on this dimension missile, and as I say its vary consists of each inch of the USA. Now, one purpose I’m elevating this with you immediately is as a result of I don’t know if Mr. Sullivan has advised you about this.
It’s massive information. Did it come as a shock to Russian specialists? It positive did, myself included. However there’s no gainsaying of science right here. It’s been examined, and it may attain the USA.
Scheer: When did you guys on the CIA uncover this?
McGovern: A yr in the past. And we printed —
Scheer: I’ve been briefed on it?
McGovern: No, truly, we found it from a really outstanding scientist who wrote in a assume tank article that this had occurred, the identify of —
Scheer: Wait, I’m purported to be studying assume tank articles? What are you doing right here? Why haven’t I been advised about this.
It’s scary. It’s very scary, proper?
McGovern: It’s scary, Mr. President, you want —
Scheer: It’s the tip of the world perhaps, proper?
McGovern: I don’t assume the leaders of North Korea are loopy, however they’re definitely not a sane as many others. What that you must do, Mr. President, I’ve to let you know, is ask Mr. Sullivan why he’s saved this from you.
It was in August of final yr that he was requested at one among his press conferences on the Nationwide Safety Council what about this report put out by this prestigious assume tank that this Topol M, this very refined Russian missile has been given to North Korea.
And he stated, ‘oh, we’re conscious of these stories. We’re wanting into it. Our intelligence individuals are taking a look at it.’ Mr. President it’s not our purview to advise you on these items, except we really feel we have now to. After 10 months, we really feel we have now to, that’s why I’m presenting this to you proper now. It’s a measure of how a lot Putin believes that he’s on the hearth from the West and his exigent want for as many allies as he can muster, not solely Belarus, not solely China, however now North Korea.
Scheer: This doesn’t scare the Russians and the Chinese language, too? Couldn’t that very same missile be shot at them?
McGovern: Probably not, no. Its vary is such and it’s not pointed at them. The Russians can see precisely what it could be focused towards. There can be no want or no actual purpose for North Korea to decide on another goal than the great previous ol’ U.S.A.
Scheer: But when that missile hits in the USA, that’s the tip of Russia.
We’re not going to play video games and say, oh, that’s Korea, however not Russia. They gave them the automobile.
McGovern: Mr. President, that will be the tip of all of us. That’s why we actually are puzzled by this.
Scheer: Let me get one thing right here Ray, you advised me that someone’s identified this has been mentioned. The place is it? Is it mentioned in a entrance web page of the New York Instances anyplace or on the tv? The place? The place is it mentioned? It’s the primary time I’m listening to about it.
McGovern: Yeah, that’s the issue. It’s higher late than by no means. It was printed in July in a really prestigious assume tank known as the Worldwide Strategic Research Institute. And it was it precipitated a little bit of a stir amongst specialists, however none among the many press. And that’s why the press lastly requested Jacob Sullivan, what do you consider this?
And he knew about it, however he stated, ‘Oh yeah we’re conscious of that. We’re having our specialists take a look at it.’ Now, I might have thought that he would’ve made some sort of report back to you by now. I don’t know why he hasn’t, however we determine it’s our job as principal International Intelligence Advisors to you, Mr.President, to go forward and step in although we in a approach are going be round channels.
Scheer: Ray, why am I listening to about it this morning? Simply because Putin’s over there. Trump went over there. He solely crossed the road there within the demilitarized zone, let’s say it wasn’t, embracing them in the identical approach you say Putin is, however why are we studying about this now?
McGovern: I simply thought that since Putin has simply arrived in Pyongyang, that this was a handy juncture at which to advise you that, I don’t know why Sullivan hasn’t advised you about this, but it surely’s actual, it’s there, it surprises the remainder of us, but it surely’s factual. Now, the principal writer of this paper is a fellow named Ted Postol, Professor Emeritus at MIT, and long-time advisor to the Chief of Naval Operations for Strategic and Different Forces.
He’s a man who’s been in authorities at very excessive ranges and, as I say, taught physics and different issues, not solely at MIT, however at Stanford and Cal and different locations. So he’s very nicely revered, however no one needs to take care of this. That’s why I’m telling you, Mr. President, it’s our job to let you know issues that no one else needs to let you know.
Scheer: Okay. So let me get this straight as a result of Ted Postol, he’s been round and he’s a peacenik now, proper? And for a while involved concerning the unfold of nuclear weapons to a level that will immobilize us as a result of we couldn’t come to assistance from the Ukrainians and different issues we have now to do as a result of we’d be so afraid of triggering nuclear struggle.
Folks query what a few of these scientists say, that bulletin of atomic scientists and people sort of individuals say that stuff. However what I’m asking you is, you’re connecting this with Putin’s go to. This isn’t some mental dialogue we’re having.
You’re telling me that Putin’s being in Korea now’s associated to an elevated, perhaps essentially the most excessive risk we’ve had. In the event you determine that these guys in North Korea have gotten the weapon that might hit New York or one thing, Los Angeles, and that Putin is their what? To inform them it’s okay or he’s the ally of theirs, what’s happening?
McGovern: He’s de facto an ally of North Korea now and I attempted to elucidate earlier than Mr. President, the best way we see it’s the previous adage ‘the enemy of my enemy is my buddy’. It’s labored extraordinarily nicely for Putin incurring favor with Xi Jinping in China, and now it’s labored with North Korea.
Scheer: Yeah, however that exhibits an actual desperation.
This man has been telling the world that he’s a strong statesman, that he cares about peace, that he respects legislation and order, after which he will get in mattress with the North Koreans. He’s panicking. Is he panicking as a result of we’re profitable now in Ukraine? We’ve turned it round and and he’s going to lose?
We simply had this convention, all these nations. I didn’t go, however Kamala went and so they all assist Ukraine. So is he panicking now?
McGovern: Mr. President, no, he’s not panicking. It’s disconcerting that some years in the past, we expect perhaps two or three, he noticed match to provide North Korea this missile, this sort of functionality.
Scheer: By the best way, you retain bringing this up, simply so I’m clear right here, this man, Postol at MIT, he says this, however is that this backed up? Does the CIA consider this? Do we all know? Do we have now proof that they really have this weapon?
McGovern: I’ve to let you know, Mr. President, it’s actually embarrassing to say this, however the CIA is aware of about it.
It’s science, okay? When a missile like that is examined, which this one has been, you possibly can see the parameters, you possibly can see what it’s able to, and it has not but been examined to its full vary, however it will possibly simply be so examined. So it’s not likely a lot a matter of desperation. It’s a matter of when Putin determined to do that.
He noticed that there’s no turning again. There’s no turning again to Europe to curry favor with NATO and the USA. That he needed to construct very sturdy playing cards within the far east, not solely in China however in North Korea. As for that peace convention, or peace summit that Vice President Harris attended.
I hope she has briefed you on her expertise there, and why she solely spent a pair hours there. It was by all goal requirements a debacle. Only a few individuals have been keen to say the sorts of issues that Zelensky wished. And the background of the entire thing was the truth that not solely the Russians think about Zelensky a usurper now, unlawful, in keeping with Ukrainian constitutional legislation, is not president. And so why ought to they hassle?
Scheer: However that’s a number of crap, Ray. You understand that. He can’t have an election as a result of they invaded him. They invaded his nation, so he’s postponed the election. However he’s clearly the chief of Ukraine. Don’t give me that malarkey, and the convention.
Most of these international locations supported him. Look, we made a dedication at that convention to again Zelensky for 10 years, proper? That’s a fairly large dedication, and the Russians, what are they doing? They’re panicking, proper? They’re determined.
McGovern: Probably not. Putin on Friday laid down his phrases for what would possibly occur in Ukraine if the West confirmed some flexibility.
He stated, look we’re profitable in impact. We’ve the area over nearly. The totality of 4 provinces, what we insist on earlier than negotiations begin is the Ukrainian troops withdraw from these 4 provinces. That can create a ceasefire straight away. And Ukraine must forswear any goal to affix NATO.
Now these are sturdy —
Scheer: Yeah, they’re sturdy. It means giving up what 20 p.c of the Ukraine, which is your industrial base, your most important massive grain space. I’m not an knowledgeable like you’re on Russia and on Ukraine, all that. However the reality of the matter is, that will be a compelling victory. He’s speaking about grabbing that completely, that the 20 p.c or no matter it’s.
McGovern: He says that these 4 provinces want to stay as a part of Russia now.
Scheer: That’s conquest. That’s seize it. And what are these individuals within the 4 provinces purported to do?
McGovern: There have been plebiscites there carried out already. There have been worldwide observers, and people plebiscites have come out on the aspect of most individuals desirous to be a part of Russia.
He’s acquired that on his aspect.
Scheer: They don’t, they’re not Ukrainians?
McGovern: They’re Russian audio system, principally, and so they don’t just like the Zelensky authorities and the best way it’s proceeded in marginalizing minorities like Russian audio system.
Scheer: Okay, however Ray, I do know you’ve been with the CIA, you have been with the CIA, 27 years or one thing, and also you’re Russian talking, you’ve acquired your piece of authority.
However I have to say, I keep on with you since you’re an previous timer and, I consider in being open. However you’re telling me one thing I don’t hear from any of my advisors. Okay. Now I defend you. Each single time I say one thing that Ray tells me in these briefings, they are saying, yeah, however that’s Ray, and he’s out of contact and he’s not talking for the entire company.
And he’s not following present occasions and he’s a pinko. Now I do know it’s laborious to name someone a pinko who helps Putin, since Putin defeated the communists and he claims that he doesn’t like them. However the reality of the matter is, you’re telling me one thing that I’m not listening to from the opposite individuals within the intelligence group.
Now, I’m sticking with you, and I’ve advised you this earlier than, however lots of people say I’m losing my time speaking to you. Some individuals are even suggesting perhaps you’re employed for them or one thing, a number of speak now. We acquired lots of people on this nation. And in spite of everything, perhaps Donald Trump, proper?
Donald Trump had shut ties to Putin, and we don’t know the place, he doesn’t like NATO and what’s that every one about? In order that’s gonna be an enormous difficulty on this election that I’m gonna push. I’m gonna push that, as a result of the place is Trump? Possibly Trump’s sympathizer it to the communists, to Putin.
McGovern: Mr. President, I respect your candor. And all I can say is that I welcome your openness to listening to different views since you’re getting the identical view from your whole different acolytes, not acolytes, your whole different advisors who, frankly, Mr. President, are telling you what they assume you need to hear.
That’s not the function of an intelligence officer or intelligence company. Now, one factor I might need to clarify to you is that in all of the publicity that has come out of this main speech that Putin made on Friday, one factor has been noticeably missing, and that’s the undeniable fact that in April of 2022, so six weeks after the beginning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there was a deal.
And the deal included Ukraine saying ‘We will likely be impartial. We is not going to be a part of NATO’ and the Russians saying, ‘Okay, we’ll assure your safety with the assistance of different individuals. And we’ll speak concerning the Donbass and we’ll discuss Crimea later’. That was preliminary. That was the deal. How do we all know that the chief Ukrainian negotiator Arakhamia.
He comes and he talks brazenly a yr in the past about, yeah, we had this deal and guess what occurred? Boris Johnson got here in from London and stated, ‘Don’t signal that deal. We’re going to combat them. We’re going to combat them to the tip.’ And as Russian leaders have just lately stated, that’s once they turned to, we’re going to make use of this to weaken Russia, to provide Russia a strategic defeat.
Let me simply learn you what Putin stated, not on Friday, however again in March, it’ll offer you a way for the way the Russians take a look at this, which is what I feel that you must know. Right here it’s.
Putin, we have been holding talks in Istanbul, in Turkey, and there was a doc, there was truly a draft treaty. It was initialed by the top of the negotiating group, Mr. Arakhamia.
You would see a signature on it. He himself publicly advised the world, it was at a gathering of journalists, that Prime Minister of Nice Britain and Mr. Johnson arrived and satisfied them to not signal the treaty and due to this fact to not implement it. And that’s once they began to deliver up this subject you may have simply talked about, particularly the necessity to defeat Russia on the battlefield.
Putin stated that in March. Now, one little carousel right here. In April, Lavrov, the international minister, stated this, ‘Yeah, Arakhamia stated this with such a naive expression about Mr. Johnson coming in and saying no. Such a naive expression on his face that I even felt a bit sorry for him. He appeared to be upset that Johnson had exhibited this conduct.’
All that negotiating for nothing. When was Arakhamia appointed to barter? 4 days after the invasion, February twenty eighth. He went as much as Belarus, negotiated, went all the way down to Istanbul, negotiated. That they had a deal. Now, why do I make this level? No one is aware of this. You understand why? As a result of although the New York Instances had a fulsome article, two articles on Saturday about these paperwork, by no means was it talked about that they have been close to a finalization till Prime Minister Boris Johnson arrived and put the kibosh on the entire thing.
My level right here is just that except individuals know the reality about this, individuals are going right into a sure interpretation of historical past. And I might recommend that you just inform your individuals to inform the entire story, after which the New York Instances will be at liberty to inform the entire story. After which individuals may be prepared for what’s going to occur in Ukraine. And what’s going to occur in Ukraine earlier than the election, in our estimate, may be very unhealthy information for this administration.
Scheer: What’s going to occur?
McGovern: There will likely be a definitive defeat.
Russia will win. In different phrases, what you stated in July of final yr, Putin has already misplaced in Ukraine. Flip that round 180 levels, the world will see that Russia has not misplaced, however received in Ukraine. Putin has the potential. There may be nothing to cease him, Mr. President, except now I say, except you don’t need World Conflict III, however the one approach that he could possibly be stopped can be in case your advisor stated, ‘Oh, let’s use a low yield nuclear weapon.’
Would that cease him? I don’t know. Many individuals are involved, together with in fact, Putin and Lavrov and the protection individuals in Kremlin. That this being the one factor that’s not but been tried by your advisors, that they may say to you, Mr. President, we’re going to lose massive time in Ukraine, after which we’ll lose the election and all of the implications of that.
So let’s do this mini nuke factor.
Scheer: Okay. Ray, you’re simply going up to now forward of me right here and my very own understanding and look, I preserve repeating this. Okay. Generally everyone tells me I ought to cease speaking as a result of, I don’t know why, and also you’re not talking for the company. Folks level out you’re truly not related anymore.
Actually, I preserve you as an advisor simply trigger within the previous days you speak to me, however let’s perceive that we’re simply now giving all of them these new weapons which might be going to alter the steadiness of energy there, proper? And we’ve even given them permission to go assault targets in Russia which might be attacking Ukraine.
And I’m giving them a number of the best weapons that the West has, the best when it comes to floor warfare and so forth, and you’re telling me that in a matter of months, all of these things goes to fail to cease a victory. And what would the victory be? They’re going to seize Kiev, they’re going to beat the nation, or they’re going to maintain their 4 provinces?
What are we speaking about right here?
McGovern: Mr. President, with all due respect I consider you’re utilizing the unsuitable tense. We haven’t given them something besides cash. We don’t have the weapons to provide them. Neither does Europe. We didn’t produce the shells which might be crucial for his or her primary artillery.
You understand why, Mr. President? As a result of we didn’t think about Russia a risk till we overturned the federal government in Kiev in 2014. So there’s an absence of preparedness, numerous cash going into Zelensky, however no weaponry for the subsequent couple of months. So no, this isn’t —
Scheer: Ray, come on. There are tanks that he didn’t have earlier than.
Probably the most superior artillery that he didn’t have earlier than. The vary has elevated. We’re inflicting all types of harm for Putin there along with his fleet. I see stories on a regular basis. And typically, actually, I’m wondering, what are you consuming or one thing? Is that this all made up?
McGovern: Mr. President, I do know sufficient from taking a look at CNN every now and then to know that that is the impression given to individuals within the nation, together with your self. Nevertheless it’s an misguided impression, and it’s truly parroted by individuals like your protection minister, your protection secretary, who is completely unrealistic, saying that we’re in management, and we’re going to win.
You’ve John Kirby, your spokesman, saying, ‘Yeah, we’re going to win, we’re going to have Ukraine be a part of NATO.’ That’s not going to occur, Mr. President. So I welcome the prospect to be satan’s advocate or the fly within the ointment right here. That you must know that that you must widen your circle of advisors.
We stated that exactly to George W. Bush earlier than he went into Iraq. We stated that to Obama earlier than he went into Afghanistan, and now we’re saying to you. Let me offer you one as an example, as we used to say within the Bronx, okay? Right here’s the as an example: John Mearsheimer 10 years in the past stated the Ukraine debacle is the fault of the West and Ukraine goes to be destroyed if it goes this fashion?
Now, I requested John Mearsheimer publicly. You’re in Washington now. Has anybody sought to speak to you, like from the State Division, and what he stated was very telling. He stated, Ray, in all my years as a professor because the chief of the Real looking Faculty of Worldwide Relations, not as soon as has any administration official tried to ask my recommendation on something.
That is the man that was proper about Ukraine, and no one consulted him. Right here’s an thought. Speak to John Mearsheimer. You would dismiss what he says, however at the very least widen that circle of advisers and wall audio system.
Scheer: Ray, we’re going to expire of time this morning, and I’m disturbed by this briefing most likely as a lot as I’ve been by any briefing.
Initially, the prospect that Putin has gone nuts right here going to North Korea and that they’ve given him this weapon that might simply deliver on the tip of the human race. This isn’t some minor consideration in an admittedly crass political concern as a result of I’m a candidate. I acquired to get reelected to cease this maniac Trump from getting in energy.
You’re telling me that the Ukraine factor goes to be falling aside earlier than the election. That will likely be a catastrophe, not only for me, however for the nation and I need to pin this down as a result of it’s sufficient. And the very fact of the matter is I hear that the Russian casualties are astronomical. How lengthy are they going to have the ability to seize individuals to combat on this struggle once they’re dropping way over the Ukrainians are, and the Ukrainian individuals are united to withstand them. And as I say, you retain pushing away this convention that simply came about. However we had, what, I don’t know, some 70, 80 nations that did agree with us. Yeah, some like India, Mexico, a number of of them didn’t go alongside. However we acquired world, worldwide assist for our effort to protect freedom right here.
I’m reminding you, Ray, we’re speaking about freedom of the Ukrainians. You inform me a number of the Russian talking Ukrainians, they don’t thoughts or perhaps who is aware of what these elections are. They have been underneath Russian occupation. I simply acquired to sq. this. You bought the credentials, however you’re getting previous Ray, you’re previous.
And perhaps there’s a query of the place your loyalties are, I don’t know. However you don’t have a contract with RT or Sputnik or any of these individuals, do you?
McGovern: No, I don’t.
Scheer: You’re not on the lookout for a profession of being a speaking head on these sorts of exhibits? So what’s taking place right here?
Inform me what’s the truth verify. The place do I am going? I am going on now and I ask my guys. I say, okay, I’ve acquired 5 questions for you. You inform me the struggle goes advantageous. We’re getting worldwide assist. We acquired the precise gear. We put essentially the most superior tanks and artillery. It goes a lot additional. I’ve given them permission to hit targets.
We all know they’re hitting targets, even in Russia itself and every little thing. And also you’re telling me. That that is all not taking place, and all we’re doing is giving him cash?
McGovern: Mr. President. I might recommend you ask your advisors to look within the historical past books and see the sort of scenario that Lyndon Johnson confronted on the finish of 1967 in Vietnam.
He was advised all these very same issues by Westmoreland, who was asking for 206,000 extra troops to go up into Cambodia and into North Vietnam. Now, LBJ, by his personal admission, stated, I used to be gonna give Westy these troops. And what occurred? Ted, the large offensive on the finish of January, early February 1968, put the kibosh on this.
And Lyndon Johnson realized he’d been lied to, and that’s when he widened the circle of his advisors. A bit of late within the recreation, proper? Clark Clifford and the others got here in and stated, Look, alright, they stated Westmoreland stated he’s profitable, and he was mendacity to you, so that you higher go to negotiations. You higher cease bombing, and Mr. President, most likely be a good suggestion for those who didn’t run once more. And certainly, on the finish of March thirty first, 1968 president Johnson stated, ‘I’m not gonna run for reelection’. In order that’s historical past right here. The analogy is invidious, but it surely appears to be apt for my part. Ask them about it.
Scheer: Yeah. Cease for a second. We acquired to start with, there’s cash we’re giving them now. We’re getting out of their very own cash, the Russian cash, proper? We’re getting the curiosity on the cash that we’ve frozen, proper? That $50 billion there. I suppose it’s extra. We’re making Putin pay for this struggle, that’s primary.
Secondly, we acquired our allies within the free world stepping up in Europe. They’re build up their armed forces. They’re even speaking about sending troops. French are speaking about placing some troops in there to at the very least information to weapons. We’re speaking about unimaginable time of unity. Ray, I’ve been sitting right here considering, versus this unimaginable mess with Israel and Gaza the place, it’s simply getting uncontrolled, everyone’s turned towards us right here and name me Genocide Joe and all that sort of stuff. At the very least on Ukraine, we’re on the aspect of freedom. We’re profitable. We acquired the assist of the democracies of the world. And albeit, I can’t sq. what you’re saying right here this morning.
With what has occurred since our convention. Now I ought to have most likely gone. Kamala went, she stated she acquired an incredible reception there. And most, each democracy. I suppose perhaps India is a few sort of democracy, they didn’t again us the best way we would like. Inform me, I acquired to go, we’re operating out of time.
I acquired a number of issues I acquired to do in the present day, however proper now I’m getting ticked off massive time. And I don’t know whether or not to get ticked off with my advisors or with you. So give it a shot, Ray, actually, as a result of this could possibly be our final dialog,
Scheer: In the event you assume now deeply, did you overstate it? What about all these indicators of progress within the Ukraine?
McGovern: Mr. President with all of the respect, I don’t consider I’m the one which’s overstating the progress. You’ll recall that 160 international locations have been invited to that summit, about half of them got here. A great proportion, even of our allies, voted towards the decision, and the decision was milquetoast, so most individuals consider that session there in Switzerland was a debacle.
Now, with respect to the remainder of the stuff right here, I don’t take pleasure in being unpopular, however I’m used to it. We advised LBJ that Westmoreland was mendacity to you. Guess the place that acquired us? Our director stated, look, we are able to’t become involved in a pissing match with the U. S. Military at struggle. Knock it off! We didn’t knock it off.
We tried in each strategy to present LBJ is being lied to. And it wasn’t till it was too late after the Tet Offensive, January, February 1968, that lastly he realized, ‘Now let me speak and speak to those individuals who know what’s up, Clark Clifford and the others.’ And so they stated, ‘Yeah, you’ve been lied to and that you must go to negotiations.’
Now, the parallel is so stark, Mr. President, that I assumed I’d increase it, since you’ll keep in mind all this. And although you turned a senator for the primary time in 1972, numerous that stuff was very recent within the minds of individuals, significantly people who find themselves attuned to international affairs.
So 1968, 1972, you miss the large stuff, however you have been there for the residue and the residue has been bitter. And if we don’t study from our errors previously, nevertheless unpopular the bearer of the message could also be, we’ll come to what the Chinese language used to name “a no good finish”.
Scheer: If I take what you say severely, I’m on the finish right here of my tolerance. It’s truly essentially the most horrifying dialog I could have ever had. You’re telling me that we not solely have introduced, these individuals may have had pressure between the Chinese language, and the communists in China, communists in Russia. They have been taking pictures at one another whereas we have been in Vietnam. And we definitely didn’t get together with North Korea, which was scared them. And, the oddball nation, hermit kingdom, regardless of the hell you assume. You’re now telling me we’ve fomented this alliance with North Korea, China, and Russia, and with all of their weaponry and all that stuff. After which on the identical time, we all know Putin’s economic system is just not struggling the best way I assumed it was, purported to collapse.
Additionally, nobody ever advised me that they might make all these weapons and replenish their military, as a result of they’re purported to be all drunk and corrupt.
McGovern: You have been simply advised the alternative.
Scheer: Yeah. However the reality of the matter is, after which they go make that silly march as much as Kiev.
Clearly that we, as I’ve been advised, they have been purported to be conquering it and so they failed and the vehicles all acquired caught within the mud and every little thing. And now, taking a look at it, you inform me I’m giving them nothing however cash. However I’m being advised by the individuals who make these weapons right here that it is a recreation changer, that these are precision weapons of larger lengths and lethality and so forth, that’s going to show this round.
You’re telling me, Ray, simply your complete, it’s not the ballgame, your status. Proper now I’m beginning to assume there’s one thing nutty about this that you just’re telling me between now and the election, as a result of I’ve been assured we are able to present progress between now and the election in Ukraine.
I don’t learn about Gaza and Israel, as a result of Netanyahu is off the charts. He’s going to denounce me and he’s going to assist Trump. That’s what’s going to occur, he’s determined. He’s determined. He didn’t need to go to jail by his personal individuals. He doesn’t need to be held accountable, for not having good safety.
In spite of everything, they’re purported to be the genius about it. And so they’re all purported to be profitable wars in a matter of days, not, months, perhaps years. Now they’re speaking about being caught preventing there for years. That’s a loser. After which Trump, and don’t say I’m stuttering or dropping it, we discuss these items on a regular basis, we make some lapses in our speak and every little thing, however, that, all proper, let’s not go there. What I’m saying is, although, Ukraine is meant to be our image of resolve and success. Simply give it to me actually straight right here, as a result of I’m going to exit and I’m going to be chewing out some individuals for some powerful solutions.
How within the hell are you able to inform me that after our placing in all this gear, now the brand new stuff, and we acquired the assist of, I’ve by no means seen NATO, such resolve. They’re truly speaking about placing troops, are actually stiffening all of the penalties and every little thing, you’re telling me it’s going Putin’s approach.
McGovern: Mr. President that you must be extra broadly suggested by a wider circle of advisors. So let me do a substitute act right here. NATO is just not united in a approach had not earlier than. You’ve Hungary saying, ‘We’re outta right here. We’re not gonna participate in any hostilities with Russia.’ We’ve Slovakia. We’ve different international locations.
Turkey. Turkey needs to affix BRICS. By no means earlier than has NATO proven such fishers. Okay.
Scheer: BRICS, the Russian, Chinese language, Indian Alliance of the
McGovern: Yeah, the BRICS. Yeah. Brazil, India.
Scheer: Yeah. South Africa. Yeah.
McGovern: China, South Africa. Yeah. Now they’re, they’ve Saudi Arabia and several other different international locations. That is taking place.
I’m not saying that your advisors need this to occur, what I’m saying is that by their very own actions, they’ve precipitated the remainder of the world just about to say, ‘We don’t need any a part of what’s happening in, on this guidelines primarily based worldwide order, no matter that’s.’ And simply parenthetically, Mr. President, in that lengthy speech that Putin made on Friday, he no fewer than 22 instances referred to worldwide legislation, okay? Now he’s skilled within the legislation, and he tries to stick to the letter of the legislation. You’ll be able to dispute what the legislation is, all attorneys do, however he has this factor about Guidelines primarily based worldwide legislation.
Let me simply add one factor. There could possibly be a recreation changer. F 16s could possibly be it. Now you keep in mind, Mr. President, that it was solely —
Scheer: A recreation changer for freedom, proper?
McGovern: Let me clarify. When Bahmut was misplaced, you recall you have been within the far East and Zelensky got here out to see you. I used to be like, my God, we misplaced.
And also you stated. What we do, and also you had no army advisors with you and someone stated how about giving them F 16? So that you stated instantly, we’ll get them F 16. Now the rub there, Mr. President is F 16 can carry nuclear weapons. And on the prospect you haven’t been suggested of this, the Russians have stated, we received’t know as soon as an F 16 takes off whether or not it has nuclear weapons on it.
And so we’re going to shoot it straight away. And we’d shoot the airfield from which it flew. So escalation, that will be escalation. Not a lot the F 16s, the Russians have the potential to down them fairly readily. But when the Russians assault air bases in Romania, or Poland, then you may have a scenario the place these individuals would possibly say Article 50, Article 5, the NATO treaty, we have now to go to struggle.
I don’t assume from my view, you wouldn’t need to be confronted with that call, however, F 16s could possibly be a recreation changer. One different recreation changer, Mr. President. Now, these attackums and these HIMARS and these scalps and all these different missiles, they will do pinprick assaults in Russia. The Russians can deal with all that.
What they will’t deal with is assaults on their early warning radar amenities, early warning towards strategic assault. There have been two or three of these. Now, they don’t have the potential that we have now of each little strategic missile each ballistic missile that’s shot up anyplace on the planet.
We all know the place it’s. We all know precisely when the Russians don’t have that. And so, one response that the Russians have made with respect to that is, ‘Don’t do that, don’t hit our radio stations’. Now these are Ukrainian drones, however everybody is aware of they might not have been navigated so exactly with out U. S. intervention. Now what’s a symmetric, what’s an uneven strategy? Let’s ship a small fleet of ships, nuclear powered and perhaps nuclear armed ships to Cuba. Appears to me we did that earlier than, in 1962.
Scheer: You’re speaking concerning the Russians sending them.
McGovern: That’s proper.
Scheer: They only did that, proper? As a result of that’s what they’ve accomplished.
Yeah.
McGovern: They’ve simply accomplished a 5
Scheer: No, they declare, I checked out one report, they declare they’ve been there earlier than.
McGovern: They’ve visited Havana earlier than. They’ve been there earlier than. However this time it was within the context of retaliation, uneven or symmetric retaliation. For these hits deep inside Russia, and significantly for my part these early warning websites with out which Russia is blinded have been there to be a submarine within the Indian Ocean, for instance that will shoot Trident missiles up into Russia. So issues are getting strategically difficult. It’s one factor to speak concerning the battle traces in Ukraine. The opposite is to speak about F 16s which might be, by definition, nuclear succesful. And it’s yet one more factor to speak about missiles that take, or missiles or drones, that take out early warning radar methods that the Russians rely upon for early warning towards nuclear assault.
Scheer: We’re taking out their early warning methods?
McGovern: There are 10 of them of this type. We broken two of them. Shot at three of them. After which after I say we, it was the Ukrainians.
Scheer: This has gone on lengthy sufficient. We’re going to finish with this, Ray. However let me perceive one thing. I assumed we’re damaging their skill to wage struggle in Ukraine with these methods.
I didn’t know this was their early warning methods about whether or not they have been underneath nuclear assault.
McGovern: Please ask your ask Mr. Burns, your CIA director. He’ll ask Mr. Austin the top of protection, and I hope they’ll let you know what the truth is, and that’s that there is no such thing as a rational clarification within the Ukraine context for these Ukrainian drones going deep, 1, 000 kilometers inside Russia.
Solely potential by steerage from U. S. satellites and different mechanisms and hitting these locations. Why did they try this? I don’t know, however perhaps your individuals could have a greater thought, however beware. The steerage you’re getting from significantly Secretary Austin, as I stated earlier than there is no such thing as a verify on the protection intelligence as we used to have again in Vietnam days for the U.S. The CIA had its personal impartial army evaluation functionality. There’s no verify on that now. And so when Austin tells John Kirby to behave like he’s been criticized as Baghdad Bob, okay, to say we’re gonna win, we’re gonna have Ukraine enter NATO. That’s not solely not potential, it’s additionally fairly harmful as a result of nobody is aware of precisely what you consider.
Do you consider what Kirby says? He’s your spokesman. Or do you consider what Austin says? Or do you maybe entertain the notion of believing different sources? Please, Mr. President with all due respect, widen your circle of advisers so that you just’re not ingrained on this.
Scheer: Ray, okay, that is going to be the tip of it.
You’re telling me that as a result of the entire thing within the submit struggle interval after the event of the, what we needed to drop Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We needed to, these have been army targets, we needed to take them out. Though I seen we have been going to have peace. I keep in mind I watched a few motion pictures. Then we may have had a peace with Japan, they only wished to guard their Emperor. I seen he’s visiting now. So I don’t know the way, myself, I’m perplexed as a result of why did we drop these bombs? If it was to cease the emperor, it’s essential to them for some nationwide non secular thought. They wished to avoid wasting their emperor, however now we don’t thoughts their emperor.
He’s touring round and it appears to be on our aspect, the emperor.
McGovern: I’ve a private view on that. I’ve a private view on that, Mr. President. I’ve studied this drawback drastically, for those who’d like me to touch upon it, however go forward, please.
Scheer: Oh, go forward. That’s the one factor I can study from you, Ray, is you may have some sense of historical past right here since you helped make it.
And I have to say, by the best way, Ray, if you have been making this historical past, I didn’t hear an excessive amount of that this wasn’t good for America. You spent 27 years of your life right here within the CIA, and now all of the sudden on my watch as president, you’re giving me a tough time? Did you give all these different guys a tough time?
McGovern: Frankly, I did till Secretary Shultz and President Reagan got here round and noticed that the Russians weren’t satan incarnate that they could possibly be handled.
As a matter of reality, that there could possibly be agreements amongst them, the destruction rather than absolutely armed a complete class of medium and intermediate vary ballistic missiles. SS 20s within the Soviet Union, Pershing IIs in the USA. They agreed to destroy them. I used to be shocked as hell and so they did it.
They have been all destroyed. And my buddy, Scott Ritter was one of many individuals went as much as one among these godforsaken locations within the Arctic to ensure they have been destroyed. So in case you have a modicum of belief in each other, In the event you speak to at least one one other, as I encourage President Secretary Schultz to speak to Gorbachev and Shevardnadze, then you possibly can work these items out.
I don’t know if you wish to hear my factor concerning the Japanese Emperor, however
Scheer: You’re precisely proper. Due to that film, Oppenheimer and every little thing. Okay. You’re precisely proper.
McGovern: Yeah. You’re precisely proper to be puzzled as to why we did it, however I do know why we did it. We did it due to racism.
Truman requested Eisenhower, MacArthur, Admiral Halsey, all this prime army ‘Ought to we do that?’ And so they all stated, ‘No, the struggle is over’. We’ve the Japanese codes. All they should do is to be advised, ‘Look, you possibly can preserve your rattling emperor. We’re not going to string them up. Okay. You bought to maintain them.’ and so they’re able to, they’re able to fold.
Okay. So why did they try this? Jimmy Burns from the good state of South Carolina, he was the Secretary of State. He and Truman have been racist via and thru. Truman by no means referred to African Individuals, besides utilizing the N phrase. And so they stated, look, we’re going to show them a lesson.
They don’t appear like we do. And direct descendants of these, Normal Westmoreland, the place’s he from? Oh, South Carolina. What does he say? The oriental, they don’t put the identical worth on life that we do and so forth. And who else? Lindsey Graham. Yeah, we must blast them. We must blast these individuals. In different phrases, racism is an authentic sin in the USA.
It’s not gone. And that explains, for my part, why we didn’t simply say, ‘Okay, preserve your emperor’. With out utilizing the bomb.
Scheer: We’re wandering too far area right here. Okay. I acquired sufficient to consider right here. However, I hope you’re feeling the identical approach that I do, that you just’re simply all unsuitable about this as a result of it’s a reasonably horrifying image.
And let me simply let you know, for those who’re sitting in my seat, you bought to ask your self a query. I hope the voters are all asking themselves the query, what would Trump do? Now, you bought two views to that. Some individuals assume he’d be even more durable. I don’t assume I’ve been too powerful. I feel I’ve been accountable.
However, perhaps he simply dropped the large one on Moscow or one thing, then again, we acquired a number of Democrats there in Congress and investigations saying, ‘He’s, ally or puppet of Putin, he wouldn’t blow them up.’ So it is a loopy election, as a result of is he going to have the ability to pay?
He’s not going to assault me for being a warmonger, proper? As a result of he talks powerful, proper? He needs to provide Netanyahu every little thing. However then on Ukraine, the place you’re speaking, it’s actually harmful. There was a nuclear struggle, though no one ever mentions nuclear struggle may contain Israel too. They acquired bombs that we don’t discuss, however nonetheless, we’re attending to an election now the place the general public has acquired to assume, am I extra harmful than Trump?
And on this query of this factor falling aside earlier than the election, one response could possibly be, who misplaced in Ukraine? And that perhaps, as a result of there’s a number of stuff I see within the newspapers that they’re lastly getting it. The one purpose Ukraine is in bother is as a result of the Republicans in Congress wouldn’t give them the help they wanted once they wanted it.
I stated, I feel that’s one thing we’re going to emphasize within the marketing campaign. And we’re going to should deliver up that Trump has been cozy with Putin. Possibly that’s why the Republicans didn’t give the help to, to Ukraine when it may have used it. That’s what I’m going to say in the event that they’re falling aside earlier than the election.
McGovern: Mr. President, that’s a great home argument for debating functions. What I want to finish with right here is just say that Putin has made it very clear, and he’s in management, as no Russian chief has been in management since Stalin, okay? He’s made it clear that what he values in a U. S. president is predictability, okay? Predictability.
Now, as he seems to be on the scene, every crimson line that you just personally have set with respect to the sort of weaponry you’re keen to provide to Ukraine or use in Ukraine, has saved going up and the crimson traces have been discorded. So he’s taking a look at you and questioning what the subsequent escalation will likely be, F 16s or worse.
And that’s the reason he’s for the primary time ever brandishing the nuclear weapons in such approach because the chilly workouts marketed closely with tactical nuclear weapons first time ever in Belarus, in Russia, and after we speak nuclear, that’s very severe, Mr. President. I simply need to say that I spent my profession taking a look at issues from a Soviet after which a Russian perspective. In my opinion, that’s normally taking a look at issues. You’d like to have the ability to predict what’s going to occur.
The extra these generals and admirals wanting over his shoulder and respiratory down his neck, you’d What’s the President of the USA going to do as soon as issues go south in Ukraine?
Scheer: That’s it, Ray. Wrap it up. I’ve by no means given you an hour earlier than and I hope you all, you’re simply filled with it. That’s what I hope, as a result of it’s actually horrifying.
I’m going to consider it, however I do know my guys are going to only inform me you’re off base. You don’t need to hear from me subsequent week or one thing. That’s as a result of I’ve had sufficient of this. However hopefully, perhaps they are saying you increase some factors anyway. All proper. I’ll provide the good thing about that.
I’ll speak to you subsequent week. Take care. The place’s that White Home intern there? Is he going to show us off or what does he do? The place’s that child?
