Within the third weekly episode of “Taking part in President,” Ray McGovern, 27-year CIA veteran and briefer of 5 presidents, continues to make sense of the world to “President” Scheer, who ready for this position by his many years as a journalist, together with in-depth interviews with 5 presidents from Nixon to Clinton. This week the main target is on the sweeping pupil protests throughout the U.S. and world, the Draconian Home-passed antisemitism invoice shifting to the Senate, and the horrifying future awaiting Ukraine and Taiwan after the current passage of the Biden administration’s huge navy help bundle.
Credit
Co-Hosts:
Robert Scheer and Ray McGovern
Introduction:
Transcript
Ray McGovern: Okay Good morning, Mr. President. It’s good to see you once more.
Robert Scheer: Properly, I want to speak to you this morning. What’s occurring? The nation falling aside? What are these college students doing? What’s occurring right here?
McGovern: Mr. President, the scholars are clearly upset by what’s occurring within the Center East. They don’t like the concept of a genocide, and the protestors are saying that this might not occur with out direct help out of your administration. That has them up in arms. It jogs my memory, really, of means again throughout Vietnam, when college students began disturbing the peace, so to talk, as a result of they couldn’t countenance what was occurring in Vietnam. It appears to be an eerie parallel right here, which we are able to focus on if you want.
Scheer: Yeah, however, Ray, I do know you’ve been round a very long time, 27 years, I feel, within the CIA. I rely on you this has received nothing to do like Vietnam, as a result of Vietnam, we had a draft, and that’s the entire drawback the president had then. It’s not just a few tutorial dialogue about struggle and peace, however that these younger males are going to go and. kill or be killed and it was actual severe. What these college students received to do with what’s occurring there in Israel and what we received to do with that is all between Israel and Hamas and I don’t perceive how we turned a giant goal on this. However what’s occurring there? Are there international agitators? I hear stuff about this. So what occurred there at Columbia? We’re getting complaints now that the U.S. The CIA was by some means concerned with the New York mayor and police. There’s any individual in, each at Columbia and over there on the police division they usually ordered a crackdown or did the factor what’s occurring? Was this a CIA operation?
McGovern: Mr. President simply as in Vietnam, this was self propelled. What’s distinctive about these demonstrations is as these younger college students had no pores and skin within the sport as you simply famous, there’s no draft. So why are they so upset. Their supporters contend that it’s an altruistic factor. They watch on social media, not a lot on main media. The killings which can be occurring in Gaza. They’re afraid that they’ll proceed in Rafah. And so they’re on the market in a type of disinterested, however very altruistic strategy to say, look, we Individuals don’t help genocide. We all know what occurred throughout World Battle II. And so it’s very distinctive in that respect. And in some respects, whenever you don’t have your personal pores and skin within the sport, However that speaks nicely in your rules and your willingness to be arrested and put in jail.
Scheer: You talked about earlier than genocide. that’s what they’re claiming, however the CIA didn’t inform me something about any genocide.
McGovern: Mr. President, it’s the Worldwide Court docket of Justice that dominated on the South African software. for a cease to the genocide. They mentioned there was believable genocide occurring in Israel, and that the Israelis actually should cease it, in Gaza, in fact. And the Israelis have thumbed their nostril of their accustomed means, and haven’t stopped it. The factor that has the scholars, in the US and now spreading to Britain and every kind of different international locations, upset is that the Israelis couldn’t do that with out the arming and the political help of your administration. So if you happen to’re asking me to elucidate it, that’s the perfect I can do. It’s a little paying homage to Vietnam, however as I mentioned, there’s an altruistic curiosity right here that’s not supported by pores and skin within the sport this time, so these college students, not prone to cease. I don’t know if there are sufficient jails or prisons round to carry all of them.
Scheer: Wait a minute. You say they’re altruistic. I noticed individuals telling me there’s tales now that a whole lot of them are exterior agitators. Who’s placing them as much as this? The Russians? The Chinese language? What’s occurring after which, what’s this factor? That the CIA by some means was concerned at Columbia College? What do they received to do with this? New York Police, that was a neighborhood motion. What’s occurring right here? Is that this one other conspiracy principle?
McGovern: In a way, it’s, Mr. President. These are the identical individuals telling you these items that instructed you about these infants in Gaza being beheaded, that instructed you about infants being baked in ovens. These lies have been lengthy uncovered by the Israeli media themselves. So for them to let you know that is exterior agitators, once more, that’s paying homage to Vietnam when individuals have been suspecting that the Russians and the Chinese language have been stoking the ferment on campuses. It was a lot less complicated than that. As for the CIA tie with the NYPD, that goes again to the early 2000s, 2002 or so, when one of many deputy administrators of the CIA, his identify was David Cohen, I knew him, was appointed deputy commissioner. Truly, he was head of the intelligence part of the NYPD to hunt out Muslims and different terrorists. And naturally, they received firmly in with the NYPD. And now you’ve got the mayor himself bragging about this girl at Columbia who has a day job on this institute the place Hillary Clinton and Victoria Nuland now train. However her actual job is to watch pupil ferment and report that to the NYPD and say, okay, now go in there. So it’s fairly…
Scheer: Wait, as a result of we’re getting a whole lot of warmth on this. That is Rebecca Wiener. Yeah, so she isn’t CIA, proper? She’s a professor at Columbia, proper? And also you say it’s received one thing to do with Hillary Clinton?
McGovern: No it’s the identical institute.
Scheer: Oh, however she’s a professor, professional on international coverage or one thing, proper?
McGovern: That’s what she’s referred to as, an adjunct professor. That normally means, as you already know nicely, that’s any individual with out the right levels, however given a place as a sinecure or as a canopy for the actual job. What I’m saying right here is that the mayor of town of New York has now mentioned that she was indispensable in monitoring this ferment. And that, when she noticed by her sources, her brokers on campus, that it was getting harmful, the NYPD went in on us.
Scheer: Okay, however I simply need to clear this up. The CIA, ever since Senator Frank Church’s fee, they’re not alleged to be meddling. They by no means have been alleged to be meddling in home stuff. What have they got to do with the New York PD? That doesn’t maintain up, does it?
McGovern: That’s a very good query. Now, David Cohen, in fact, didn’t develop into head of the intelligence part of the NYPD till he retired, so there’s a high-quality line between being retired and doing that.
Scheer: He had the identical job she’s received now, and he went from the CIA to the New York PD?
McGovern: That is the primary time I’ve heard of her. She wouldn’t must be a CIA staffer. She might be what we used to name an agent of affect. At any fee, she’s a successor to this embeddedness of the intelligence providers who’re alleged to be centered outward within the NYPD and different police departments.
Scheer: Yeah, so why wouldn’t or not it’s the FBI that might be embedded within the, it’s not alleged to be… Anyway, we gotta examine on that, see if it’s actual or not. However that’s not exterior agitators I’m speaking about. I’m speaking about Russians, Chinese language. Who’re these different individuals? They are saying they’re not all college students. What are they?
McGovern: The fascinating factor, Mr. President, is nobody has been produced that has a Russian and a Chinese language accent, so to talk.
Scheer: Okay, possibly it’s not them immediately, however what, is that this? As a result of, you say it’s altruistic, yeah, however like I say, that’s what they declare about their Vietnam Battle protesters, however, they have been additionally not keen to serve, they have been going to be drafted, they didn’t prefer it, so you possibly can perceive, is sensible. You don’t need to go battle on this struggle. However these individuals, and what, they received a whole lot of Jewish individuals even there, the Jewish Voice for Peace and different issues. So what’s occurring right here? That is going to be a giant difficulty within the election as a result of they’re demoralizing the younger vote that I have to get reelected.
Let’s simply be clear on this. I’m not asking this as some type of tutorial train, and it’s going to be arising as a result of Trump is, President Trump I’m alleged to say, however, former president, however, he, hold on, these phrases simply get caught in my mouth, the concept of president after which he could be president once more, and it simply drives me loopy. However anyway, he’s going to say, we didn’t do sufficient, we didn’t do sufficient, and we must always have despatched the Nationwide Guard or what have you ever. Alternatively, You bought all these younger individuals, evidently they’ve been, what, bamboozled into pondering that is some nice human rights factor that, retaliation on Hamas for his or her horrible factor they did to the Israelis. That’s going to be an election yr, and I could lose a bit. It’s one factor I’m going to lose, possibly even Michigan and these items, due to the Arab vote, however I’m going to lose the younger vote? Why do they care? What’s occurring right here?
McGovern: As I attempted to say earlier than, my thought is that these people care about genocide. Now, it’s been a very long time for the reason that genocide was dedicated in Nazi Germany, however most individuals take into consideration six million Jews have been killed, exterminated. Now, in Gaza, you’ve got two and a half million. One and a half million are actually in Rafah. It appears just like the Israelis are going to enter Rafah, regardless of what Blinken, your Secretary of State, is doing. I suppose he simply accomplished his seventh journey to the Center East. he comes throughout to the Arabs and to the Jewish authorities as a bit of pet canine saying, no, you higher not try this. After which they do it anyway. So a solution to your query, the younger individuals is not going to cease this till there’s a ceasefire and till there’s an finish to the genocide in Gaza. And that’s the altruism coming in right here. They care about Palestinian infants as a lot as they care about Jewish infants.
Scheer: Ray, the purpose is, if you happen to may get some info and discover out these exterior agitators, as a result of that might clarify lots. I don’t perceive. Anyone’s gone to Columbia, or Princeton, or, I don’t, I suppose UCLA or one thing. Do they need to jeopardize their profession? They’re cracking down fairly exhausting on these youngsters, in the event that they’re youngsters, they usually’re expelling them. It’s possible you’ll even get a felony if, as a result of who is aware of, inflicting all this violence and the whole lot like that. What sort of particular person would hand over an ivy league diploma or a prestigious school diploma of any form and threat that? I imply you have to have you ever guys do a whole lot of psychological work psych struggle and the whole lot, proper? You do a whole lot of research over there and your evaluation stuff, you already know What’s it? Is it TikTok? Are they getting brainwashed by TikTok? Is that it? Is that Chinese language? That’s Chinese language. So is that the place it’s? They’re watching as a result of there’s 170 million individuals they usually’re principally these younger individuals they usually’re watching Chinese language propaganda after which Chinese language are telling them that that is what would you say genocide? No, it’s simply Israelis making an attempt to guard themselves.
McGovern: Mr. President, they’re watching Al Jazeera. They’re watching very respected, non mainstream sources. And so they can see what’s occurring, that’s the place the altruism is available in, and no pores and skin within the sport, no draft occurring, no hazard that they must be concerned in a battle like this, they usually’re doing it anyway. I feel that must be acknowledged. And as for Chinese language/Russian affect, the, PAP rationalization that’s given by congressmen in addition to pundits is that the Russians and the Chinese language are gloating over this. They’re seeing this as understanding to their benefit. They’re actually, they usually’re doing the whole lot they will to publicize it, to present us a black eye. That’s the extent of Russian and Chinese language involvement that we see. Not a lot. Examine with the FBI, if you’ll. See in the event that they see any extra. However be cautious, as a result of the FBI units individuals up, and be sure to ask them as tenaciously as you ask me.
Scheer: Yeah, the factor that confuses me concerning the Russian factor is that they received alongside nicely with Netanyahu, it isn’t Putin, he will get alongside. And the Chinese language appear to get alongside there. And why would they be, they simply need to make hassle for us, proper? In the event that they’re doing this, why would TiKTok? I do know I don’t even know how one can use this TikTok, however, why would they use their. It simply appears to me, it’s very complicated. I assumed they received alongside, the Russians, then the Chinese language, they received together with Netanyahu, and what about Turkey? Turkey, we put them in NATO and the whole lot, they usually now simply minimize off commerce and the whole lot with Israel. What’s occurring there?
McGovern: That’s a giant step, Mr. President. the Turks are among the many first to chop commerce ties, they usually have appreciable ties. Israel, the underside line right here, is turning into increasingly more remoted and folks may say, is {that a} good or a nasty factor? I contemplate {that a} very unhealthy factor as a result of they’re very determined they usually’re prone to proceed with what they’re doing in Gaza until any individual intervenes who can cease them. And Mr. President, the world appears on and appears at you as the one particular person that might actually say, knock it off. We don’t need any extra Palestinians killed and we need to stop hearth in order that they are often fed.
Scheer: Then the identical factor occurs to me that occurred to Lyndon Johnson, and you already know it nicely. He mentioned, no, we’re having hassle right here with this struggle, and so forth. And Nixon then comes alongside and he guarantees he’s going to make peace identical to Trump does, he could make a deal. And so that you’re actually asking me to talk out now. And I can’t get Netanyahu to do any of these items you already know that. That’s the election proper He’ll come right here and personally marketing campaign towards me.
McGovern: Everybody is aware of that Mr. President, together with these younger individuals that you just talked about earlier than and folks in these main States that you could win. There’s a easy resolution, and naturally, I’m an intelligence officer, I’m not going to counsel any coverage. But when, let’s say, if you happen to spoke out and mentioned, Israel, we is not going to offer you any extra arms if you happen to do additional hurt, in Rafah, the southern a part of Gaza, which has 1.4 million individuals pushed into this small enclave, we is not going to give any extra arms if you happen to strike out at Gaza and if you don’t permit individuals to not starve. In different phrases, if you happen to let extra vehicles in, the vehicles are lined up at these, entry factors. The enterprise you could fly stuff in, balloon, or you possibly can construct an, an offshore little touchdown, that’s loopy, what the president, what most individuals assume the president can do is say, look, Mr. Netanyahu, open these gates, let these vehicles come by, as a result of the UN is saying that individuals are near hunger and lots of have already starved.
Scheer: Yeah. Ronald Reagan mentioned take down that wall, you possibly can speak that so long as you’re standing as much as the communists or one thing. However I stand as much as Netanyahu and also you’re going to have Trump for president. You recognize that and I do know that. And, what’s it in, why would Netanyahu take that deal anyway? Proper now, why would he go for that? As a result of he’ll be in jail. You recognize that. He’s received hassle together with his personal individuals. There’s enormous demonstrations. He’s unpopular in Israel. I feel, I don’t know, I wouldn’t defend him. However, Ray, let me ask you one thing else, proper now, if we take a look at the campuses, yeah, you bought to fret about them and the whole lot. However you bought the Republicans in Congress and the Democrats, majority are for it.
And I received to signal a invoice if it will get by the Senate by some means. This factor that, you criticize Israel and also you’re going to be breaking the legislation. You take a look at that? You guys look at that? I didn’t ask for that, however the Republicans, they received me between a rock and a tough place right here. I don’t signal it if it will get by the Senate, I’ll see what Schumer thinks about all this and may do there. However, if I don’t signal that, then what? I’m supporting anti Semitism, proper? That’s what that invoice there, simply handed the Congress. I’ll be accused of anti Semitism if I dare criticize Israel or minimize off help or one thing, proper?
McGovern: Mr. President, in fact, you’re conscious of the First Modification proper to free speech and to outlaw criticism of any nation, Israel or some other nation. It’s very paying homage to what occurred in China throughout the Cultural Revolution, or what occurred within the Soviet Union throughout its worst days. It’s the instrument of, Individuals who assume your nation ought to be the hegemon, ought to lead the world, and never countenance any criticism. That’s an actual difficulty right here. And these younger individuals really feel actual strongly concerning the First Modification. They really feel very strongly about how the police are referred to as to, to discourage their First Modification rights by the precise presidents and administration of those universities. If this invoice goes by and also you signal it, you could, you could please some individuals. These individuals which can be demonstrating on campuses is not going to be impressed.
Scheer: Yeah. We stay in an alternate, what do they name it? Various universes and, these younger individuals, they, I don’t know, you say they’re… I can’t consider that they actually care that a lot about what goes on there that’s not the ballgame. The ballgame is that was a giant vote, majority of Democrats and clearly Republicans say that you just criticize Netanyahu and also you’re committing a criminal offense, that’s what that claims, proper? And now they’re going to shove that earlier than me if it will get by the Senate. I can’t even get on the market and denounce it as a result of then I’ll be accused of… proper? I supported Israel each hour of my life, however I’ll be accused of criticizing Netanyahu, then you definately’re an anti Semite, proper?
And the opposite factor is, you went to Fordham, one thing about, not each Christian has at all times been so open on this query. And I received the Trump’s Protestant radical wing there. And so they’re extra for Israel than anyone. And they also’ll eat me for lunch if I don’t signal that invoice. If it will get by, what are you, telling me right here? We’re in the actual bizarre you already know what, you’ve been round 27 years. It is a more durable hand than we now have as a result of not less than earlier than we had a transparent enemy. Now, we received Putin, and now we gotta wrap this up, however you gotta inform me if the scenario in Ukraine, now that we’re sending all of them this weapons, and we voted for this factor, that’s a chump change. Yeah, most of it comes again to our personal non-public protection business and the whole lot, however nonetheless, I see not less than some information reviews that the stuff’s working now.
We are able to shoot additional into Russia, proper? We are able to get them. The stuff’s beginning to present up. So we’ll not less than have a victory within the Ukraine there earlier than the election, one thing constructive that I can offset it. As a result of this factor in Israel is simply going to maintain being a giant mess and it’s not a winner for me. However the Ukraine, that ought to flip up constructive now, proper? Earlier than the election. Let’s wrap this up, Ray, as a result of I’ve received different conferences and the whole lot, however give me some excellent news right here on the Ukraine.
McGovern: Mr. President, I actually want I may, but when we now have little or no time, I’ll simply be very blunt. You’ve been lied to about Ukraine. This more money, these additional armaments, I’m not going to make. any distinction in any respect within the trajectory of the Russian victory. The one factor that ought to be up most in all our minds is whether or not Mr. Putin will determine to have that victory earlier than the election in November or later. In each different speech, he insists that he’s prepared for negotiations, however not with the likes of Zelensky and his so-called components.
Mr. President, the outlook could be very bleak. the success of the Russian forces, which I suppose comes as a shock to you due to the way you’ve been misled, is inexorable, and it’s going to occur. Now, Putin has made it clear, really he made it clear a yr and a half in the past, that his goals are restricted, he even raised Odessa.
Scheer: Restricted? He went up there to Kiev. He was going to take over the entire nation.
McGovern: He couldn’t presumably try this with the small group of forces that they despatched up that means. And as you already know Mr. President, and as everybody is aware of now, there was an settlement in April whereby Ukraine would stay impartial they usually’d cease the preventing. And it was, the British and your administration that put the kibosh on that settlement. Simply remember that when individuals let you know to say that the Russians, received’t cease there,that they’ll go on to Poland or the Baltics. Mr. President, simply understand in your personal info, the Russians did cease. Okay?
They stopped on the finish of March, the start of April. We now have every kind of testimony, together with the Ukrainian negotiators who negotiated this settlement. All they need isn’t any Ukraine. in NATO, and that was not enough to, it was enough to Zelensky. They initialed the factor. However simply the most important level right here is that the Russians already stopped. All they needed was what that they had, okay? And they might negotiate the remainder of it. Now, it’s not going to be that good a deal now. However there’s nonetheless the opportunity of a deal. And once I point out Odesa, Putin himself mentioned Odesa, a good looking metropolis might be a, what do you name it? He referred to as it a supply of discord.
Return to the Trojan Battle, if you’ll. It might be an apple of discord or a strategy to come collectively and work out mutually advantageous, peaceable. Now, he mentioned that brazenly, he mentioned that on the finish of a 4 hour interview or questions and solutions. Possibly your individuals didn’t name your consideration to that, however in our view, these of us who assume that they’re, that the Russians are severe about not eager to do the entire schmear. Not eager to do all of Ukraine. They don’t need their very own Vietnam, they usually’re not ready to go to Western Europe, in fact. Simply in your info, this is excellent propaganda to justify extra arms or extra expenditures to the navy industrial advanced, nevertheless it ain’t actuality, Mr. President. And so there’s a prospect and, I need to let you know this since you most likely don’t hear it from anybody else.
There’s a prospect the place negotiations can attenuate your issues within the subsequent a number of months. With out negotiations, it’s a Russian victory, and the query that the Russians must face is how quickly they try this, whether or not earlier than November or after November. And, it’s actually exhausting to foretell how they take a look at it. They are saying they favor you as a predictable particular person, they favor you over Trump. Tips on how to interpret that? I feel Putin is actually afraid of your competitor, of this one who could be, the following president as he was earlier than. And the entire thing is predictability, okay? When you have an unpredictable particular person together with his fingers on the codes to their nuclear forces, that’s the very last thing the Russians need.
That’s why they’ve by no means favored Trump. And I can show that. Okay, now they’re saying it out loud. You’ve gotten one thing going right here, Mr. President. Putin has mentioned he favors you, however he’s not going to undergo a defeat on Ukraine. He’s fairly succesful and in a position and keen to undergo, to inflict a defeat on the US. Now, the very last thing I need to say right here is that I am going again to President Kennedy, as you most likely keep in mind, I got here right down to Washington when he was president, and due to his attraction to do one thing in your nation. Now, one factor he mentioned in his June 10, 1963 speech, once I was a brand new particular person on the CIA, he mentioned, look, the worst factor you are able to do is to present one other nuclear energy a selection between humiliating retreat and utilizing nuclear weapons.
Okay. Now, after the Cuban Missile Disaster, each side honored that. They by no means challenged each other. That is completely different. There’s a proxy struggle occurring in Ukraine. It’s the U.S. towards Russia once more. And many people are fearful that the Russians is not going to be tempted to make use of nuclear weapons. However when push involves shove, if there’s a complete Russian victory earlier than the election your individuals advising you from the State Division and from the Nationwide Safety Council could be inclined to say, Mr. President, you may use certainly one of these low yield nuclear weapons and Mr. President that might be the tip of all of us. We simply need to let you know that’s our view on that. It’s fairly naive to assume that low yield nuclear weapons wouldn’t yield to greater yield nuclear weapons.
Scheer: Ray thanks in your service however this isn’t actionable. I’m not, we’re not pulling again. We’ve spent all this cash. We haven’t even gotten it, most of it over there. A number of respect that you already know Russian, that you just’ve been the main professional there. I received that. I received all of it. That’s why I put up with you. However the reality of the matter is we’re not going to spend all of this cash, whether or not it’s on Israel, whether or not it’s on Taiwan, which we haven’t even talked about. I’m going to spend 100 billion {dollars} extra in any case we put in there.
You’re telling me I received to retreat or we’ve received to just accept Putin? No. We’ve mentioned, in Israel they’re saying Hamas, they’re completed. They’re toast. Putin is toast. we’ll see what we are able to do about China. We’re now sending them extra stuff, Taiwan to withstand, however we’re over the times of, yeah, you need me to do what Reagan did when he embraced Gorbachev, however Reagan was, a bit of bit possibly senile. That’s why he did it. However I’m not happening that street route. No, I received all my marbles and we’re going to hold robust. And so that you simply examine your briefings right here since you’re coming in actually pessimistic. And I, as I say, we respect you, Ray. However, let’s lighten it up a bit of bit with some good choices. All proper. Simply assume good choices. Okay. And we’re in an election.
McGovern: Mr. President, I simply closed by saying that, I used to be briefing Reagan’s, prime advisors for them, the very prime, throughout his first time period. And I watched with delight how he reached out, lastly, to wise individuals in Russia. and every kind of peace and arms management agreements have been signed. Now, in order that, that’s a part of that one historical past. Now, the opposite factor about Taiwan, which we didn’t point out, is, I feel the scenario is encapsulated in a really temporary remark by Xi Jinping, okay? Now, the background is that this fellow Ma, I neglect his final or first names, He visited. He was a earlier prime minister or president of, Taiwan, okay?
Scheer: He was a Shanghai Shed man, proper?
McGovern: Yeah, yeah. So he visits Beijing and he’s acquired by Xi Jinping, the chief of China. And what Xi Jinping says, look, Ma, we’re not going to let exterior interventionists forestall household reunion. That’s the way in which they take a look at it. The Chinese language have on a regular basis on the earth from their standpoint. There’s no prospect in our view that the Chinese language are about to launch an armed assault on Taiwan. And we see a whole lot of budgetary intelligence designed to justify additional expenditures on our Navy, Air Drive, and so forth, to justify constructing them up towards a Chinese language. Chinese language menace towards Taiwan that doesn’t exist. In order that’s our tackle that. Simply need to just remember to knew that. Scheer: All proper, Ray. Once more, attempt to make it a bit of bit extra cheerful subsequent time. And we respect your service, however, you’re speaking to some youthful individuals over, not too younger, not these school college students, however you bought to see if yow will discover another individuals there that possibly should not as frozen into the previous arms management type of stuff that you just got here by. As a result of I don’t assume that’s on anyone’s agenda now, arms management points. Anyway, I gotta go to a gathering, Ray however, as I say, I do respect your service, hold in there. Take care.
